Difference between revisions of "3rd General Meeting/log"

Latest revision as of 23:41, 3 April 2011

<eamr> millosh gave me following topics:
<eamr> 1) he prefer provider tachanka
<eamr> 2) we need an internal wiki for organization
<eamr> 3) we need a body for control domain
<eamr> more topics for this meeting?
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<eamr> llibre you have seen the 3 topics?
<slow-motion> have the provider a website?
* Beta_M sets mode: +o LLibre
<LLibre> eamr:: no, i was ejected
<eamr> alster can say more about tachanka
<XaViER> My topics are on http://meta.anarchopedia.org/index.php/3rd_General_Meeting
<Beta_M> <eamr> millosh gave me following topics:
<Beta_M> <eamr> 1) he prefer provider tachanka
<Beta_M> <eamr> 2) we need an internal wiki for organization
<Beta_M> <eamr> 3) we need a body for control domain
<Beta_M> <eamr> more topics for this meeting?
<LLibre> Beta_M:: ok.
<Beta_M> XaViER's #2 is why i'm here
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<LLibre> tachanka, i saw that on a-tech... but we had then to donate money regulary
<eamr> alster?
<eamr> millosh sad it cost 100€/month
<eamr> 30€ comes from yugoslavia community
<Beta_M> with the user base that we have now... do you think it's feasible?
<LLibre> 100 ¤ it's expensive...
<LLibre> we have not sufficient money on bank to donate...
<LLibre> (like i am treasurer)
<eamr> llibre : anna told with you about support from french anarchist organizations?
<LLibre> cause there's just 178 ¤
<LLibre> eamr:: no
<eamr> hm perhaps he comes ...
<Alster> eamr: hi, if you have any questions just ask.
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<eamr> can you explain this contract with tachanka shortly again?
<LLibre> it was first decided that we had to count about 30 ¤ / months...
<LLibre> 100 ¤ , it would n't possible...
<eamr> libre wait ... we need to think
<Alster> eamr: there's no contract yet and there won't be one, i don't think. what we've been talking about so far...
<Alster> tachanka would setup between 2 and 4 vservers with a total resources like this: 30 GB HDD, 1024 MB RAM
<Alster> additionally, backup space on a remote server would be offered at some point
<Alster> so you can have backups on two physically seperate locations
<eamr> tachanka is a radical political provider - is it right?
<Alster> there's no specific prices, but we've made suggestions as to what could be paid
<stevo> tachanka have a website?
<Alster> that's correct
<Alster> tachanka.org
<stevo> thx
<Alster> we've not had much time to do documentation so far
<Alster> instead we've spent a lot of time into improving out setup and are now able to provide vservers for a couple radical projects
<eamr> there is only a login-mask
<Alster> the exact suggested monthly contributions can be found in the mailing list archives
<Alster> eamr: try with www. instead, sorry :)
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<Alster> https://www.tachanka.org/
<Alster> But as I said, there's not much info, yet
<Alster> tachanka is run by an international collective of ~5-10 people
<Alster> the contribution of EUR 100,- / month is actually a suggestion of Milos. And we consider this more than neccessary.. 
<LLibre> vserver is a private server ?
<Alster> vserver is a virtual dedicated server
<Alster> www.linux-vserver.org
<Alster> Tachanka is very dedicated to secure setups, which protect your privacy and the privacy of your users.
<eamr> you can have several v-server on a  physical server
<Alster> for example, we have quite strict logging polcies
<Alster> we work on top of encrypted hard disk partitions
<Alster> and the like
<Alster> and after all, we're radical, like you
<LLibre> two vserver would be maybe sufficient
<Alster> those are 'features' you won't get with your average mass hosting provider
<eamr> on anarchopedia-server are more then 30 v-server atm 
<eamr> but anarchopedia is the biggest
<Alster> eamr: you are referring to VirtualHosts, that's websites setup in apache, this is something different.
<eamr> no i remember the directories on srv
<Alster> a vserver is almost the same as a dedicated server, the only remarkable difference is that you cannot update the kernel.
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<sunblitz_> re
* eamr sets mode: +o sunblitz_
* Beta_M sets mode: +o sunblitz
<sunblitz_> kick blitz please
<sunblitz_> i am blitz
<eamr> not nessesary
<sunblitz_> :)
* blitz was kicked by Beta_M (blitz)
<LLibre> then a vserver would be good to work on, and an other vserver for secure (backup, etc)
<LLibre> no ?
<eamr> i meant the kick ;-)
<Alster> the idea so far ws to separate the projects onto these vservers. 1 takes anarchopedia, another takes kontrapunkt and either the same or yet another would host the remaining sites.
<eamr> the problem with secure is more hardware then software i think ....
<Alster> backups can soon be done on another server independantly of this.
<Beta_M> would that split up the resources or would they all contend for them
<eamr> don't forget indymedia.dk
<Alster> the total resource limits i gave before refer to the hosting, not the backups, i.e. the backup is handled seperately.
<Alster> indymedia.dk would be part of 'remaining sites'
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<sunblitz> .
<LLibre> (it is the treasurer which is talking ;) : what would be good, is having more peoples donating... cause with few money for all that projects, it would be hard to pay more than two months.
<LLibre> .. if we take 100 ¤ / months
<eamr> we need aproblem-solving for oen or two years, later we have an dynamic net to mirror the anarchopedia i think
<eamr> one
<Beta_M> eamr:  i don't understand what you are saying
<eamr> sshine we talk about finances ;-)
<eamr> beta_m i think a-connect + your freenet -project give us new possibilities
<Beta_M> oh, ok... i was just making sure
<Beta_M> q;-)
<Beta_M> i thought you could have meant something else
<XaViER> I think that millosh said that non-anarchopedia projects have to fundrise independently
<XaViER> so we cover only anarchopedia part
<LLibre> i don't know peoples from tachanka, but if we begin to work with, it would be better to know how many we need donate..
<LLibre> XaViER:: ok
<eamr> llibre - if 30€ comes from yougoslavia we need 70 €/month
<LLibre> eamr:: ?
<eamr> what
<LLibre> problem i sto know hat we need for servers (we know) and what we have like money (we have few).
<LLibre> but we need maybe to harmonize that beetween what money we can and what we want.
<eamr> anna told me that french section of ifa can perhaps support us
<LLibre> perhaps... but for now we have not money for 100 ¤ / months
<stevo> how much do you think we could paid for a mounth?
<eamr> we get 30€/month from kontrapunkt
<eamr> sshine what is with indymedia.dk?
<LLibre> for now if we paid 30 ¤ / month a server, we can live for 6 months
<stevo> ok
<Beta_M> Where can we get more money
<Beta_M> where are the donations coming from currently
<Beta_M> us?
<LLibre> i know that maybe later peoples maybe will donate cause server will be active, and that will have to be active but for now it's short in money... then, i don't know if we can go in objective to send 100 ¤ / month ; but if kontrapunkt give too, it can be maybe more easy...
<eamr> millosh think that everybody who has work in europe can give 5€/month
<stevo> we can ask for anarchist organisation to help us, ask for anarchist band to make support concert
<Beta_M> stevo:  that's an idea
<LLibre> Beta_M:: donations for ap ?or general donations ?
<Beta_M> LLibre:  the donations to the funds that will be used to pay for the servers
<eamr> i think support for anarchopedia - if we get more money then we need we can supprt other projects ;-)
<Alster> Here's a mailing list post which pretty much sum's up what we're offering you: http://lists.mutualaid.org/mailman/private/anarchopedia/2006-October/000028.html
<XaViER> we need a new durruti to make expropriation work ;-)
<stevo> lol
<Beta_M> XaViER:  Mahno will be enough also
<Beta_M> q;-)
<stevo> Or we can do illegalist action to steal some stuff :P
<Beta_M> well, back to earth, if there'd be some more people in Anarchopedia in London i could organise some fundraser at hackLab... but nobody will show-up and donate if it will only be me
<LLibre> and when we are in prison, we buy internet connection, and we work on ap :)
<stevo> lol
<sunblitz> :) bankrobbing for anarchopedia hehe
<stevo> I m in middlesbrough so maybe I could support your idea Beta_M
<eamr> i not interested in seeing prison inside
<LLibre> ;)
<Beta_M> stevo:  well we could so some workshops on whatever we know, i've done some on anonymity already, i can do some other ones
<stevo> why not
<Beta_M> stevo:  basically we do a few hours of open workshops and ask people to donate whatever they can
<Beta_M> stevo:  i'm msg'ing you my e-mail
<stevo> ok give you my email in private
<Beta_M> let's talk it out, i'm quite busy lately, but i'm sure we could work something out
<eamr> boud doud mad_ olav sin^guia slow-away - what are you think about this topic?
<olav> done
<LLibre> i don't know... if we have all project to send to tachanka in sum 100 ¤ for a month, then we need maybe to contact all projects to be sure that it will be ok about what donations can be send. no ?
<LLibre> if anarchopedia has to send 30 ¤ and others the 70 ¤, it can be ok...
<LLibre> for now it is i think what can be send for ap
<slow-away> it looks like it could be working
<slow-away> i cant say something about where we can get money, because i'm not involved in some "scene"
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<eamr> i think that we can kill our technical problems in this way (perhaps)
<eamr> slow-away that's not important
<LLibre> (sorry to having talked about money, but it is what i can say now)
<eamr> we have no strong collective-pricipe like indymedia ;-)
<LLibre> now, what do we decide ?
<LLibre> if there's no otheres project on that AG, how can we know about donations ?
* LLibre talk like a treasurer
<eamr> sin^guia and sshine are from indymedia.dk and millosh (kontarpunkt) talked this night with me
<LLibre> do we decide to go on tachanka, and to organize some funds donations later and to prevent all organisations for donations ?
<LLibre> or what ? cause the point was : "Choosing hosting option (tachanka?)"
<LLibre> point ? topic
<eamr> http://anarcho.dk/ also use anarchopedia
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<LLibre> well we have "indymedia.dk" + "anarchopedia" (adn .dk) + "kontrapunkt" ; maybe it can be good for...
<LLibre> i let other peoples talk about...
<eamr> i think we are alone ;-)
<stevo> no your not :)
<Beta_M> you're not alone, it's just that i am multitasking
<Beta_M> stevo:  you should have gotten an e-mail already
<eamr> oh :-p
<Beta_M> <sarcasm>some people don't only talk, but actually organise something</sarcasm>
<stevo> lol
<Beta_M> where is middlesbroug btw, i don't know British georaphy very well
<stevo> north, near newcastle. And I haven't receved any mail for the moment :S
<eamr> xavier what is with polish community i have seen you have a very big forum
<Beta_M> stevo:  i'm south of london
<XaViER> eamr, you're talking about anarchopedians or whole anarchist community?
<eamr> use this forum for anarchopedia perhaps ;-)
<XaViER> there only 3-4 anarchopedians now
<XaViER> or even less
<eamr> i know but in the forum are more then hundred acive
<eamr> active
<XaViER> they are not all anarchists
<eamr> is a left-wing forum?
<XaViER> we dont kick out only if someone has other opinion than ours
<XaViER> but we live in poor country, most of us are unemployed, students or not well payed workers
<XaViER> we now don't have now good anarchist paper
<XaViER> only anarchocapitalist have money, but we dont like each other :-)
<Beta_M> he he he
<eamr> http://www.forum.ibw.com.pl/
<eamr> yes the most of german activists are also unemployed or students
<XaViER> yes. last money we have goes to supporting this forum, our local "offices" of anarchist federation, and Anarchist Information Centre and similiar sites
<XaViER> there is english section of this site
<XaViER> http://cia.bzzz.net/english_news
<XaViER> so you can check what is going on in poland and east europe too sometimes
<stevo> thx for the link
<Beta_M> XaViER:  good link, thanks
<XaViER> :-) you welcome
<eamr> hm we try to use anarchopedia for this, we have only very small groups in germany - groups of 20 people are big
<XaViER> yes. 20 is very big group
<eamr> only berlin, frankfurt, duesseldorf and munich have big groups - so far i know
<eamr> with frankfurt i include also mannheim and heidelberg 
<XaViER> you dont have in germany nation-wide FA?
<eamr> no
<eamr> biggest is the union fau - that organization has more then 300 members in germany
<XaViER> I see. There was proposition once on estonian anarchist forum to make international forum
<XaViER> I think that it's good idea
<XaViER> we need place to exchange ideas
<stevo> for sure
<XaViER> They said that other international forums are too US centred
<eamr> we have 3 regional groups of german anarchist forum - section of ifa - there are less then 100 i think
<XaViER> I'm talkin' now about internet forum
<XaViER> anarchopedians are best ppl to start this I think
<XaViER> we are really internationalists :-)
<Beta_M> that's cool
<Beta_M> (are we still having a General Meeting?)
<Beta_M> (this is really a good discussion though)
<stevo> (I hink because we haven't see all  the point)
<Beta_M> (but i have an assignment due tomorrow, and this is taking my time)
<eamr> anarchist forum means organization - biggest -internet forum is anarchie.de but tht is stupid
<XaViER> yes. sorry, but I propose to include this point to later discuction
<XaViER> now. we have to end first point
<XaViER> do we want tachanka and does tachanka want us? :-)
<slow-away> the german anarchy newsgroup is deleted
<Beta_M> me and stevo (hopefully) will organise a fundraser somewhere around this place for @p
<stevo> yep
<Beta_M> that won't happen too soon, i am thnking of something around mid december
<XaViER> so what is the decison?
<Beta_M> so that we can advertise and everything
<XaViER> about hosting offer
<Beta_M> however, i feel that even with that 100 euro per month is quite a lot
<eamr> in this reason and in the following of world war 2 is anarchism very small atm in germany
<XaViER> no, 100 euro is fo all projects, not only @ pedia
<Beta_M> yes, sorry
<Beta_M> still, it's a bit of money to cover
<stevo> if you said that is possible to afford this, i think that it should be good
<Beta_M> thing to remember is that it's not a one time buy, but *per month*
<Beta_M> which would mean that in 2 months we'd have nothing left
<Beta_M> LLibre:  i'm not misrepresenting figures am i?
<eamr> ok how much can everybody of us pay?
<sunblitz> 10 € month
<eamr> ok i also 10€
<Beta_M> the prob is that i'm already supporting some projects from my reserves... and i don't have  a job currently
<Beta_M> q;-(
<stevo> for the moment Im student so it would be hard to donate 10€ a month
<eamr> i have 300€ for live in month
<stevo> wow
<Beta_M> eamr:  wow, how do you do it?
<sunblitz> i get also only my social help money from goverment
<eamr> stevo: i have my own flat - i need to buy eat, drink etc.
<stevo> ok
<sunblitz> at the end 10 euro is spend very fast
<stevo> yep
<sunblitz> so better spend for ap
<sunblitz> is it posibel top get a presspass in germany from ap
<sunblitz> ?
<stevo> I think I could give 5€/mounth until I get a job :P
<sunblitz> big supermarkets have big containers full of good food!
<eamr> nicht jeder mag containern ;-)
<mad> ;)
<eamr> llibre do you have job?
<stevo> because we want your money! mouuuuuaaahahahaha! (sorry)
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<eamr> beta_m in this reason you should do something for russian anarchopedia - 10% of russian people have enough money ;-)
<Beta_M> this is getting more and more about money less and less about politics
<Beta_M> q;-(
<Beta_M> when i tried to turn the discussion back to GM i didn't mean that
<sunblitz> we have to finish the point, no?
<eamr> that's correctly - i hate it - but what other possibility we have?
<stevo> we leave in capitalist system, and until we kick them out of our life, we havve do done with :(
<XaViER> so how much we can afford for hosting
<XaViER> It's important for alster I think
<sunblitz> server cost money, and it dont like it when the the server is ofenoffline, thats realy ugly
<stevo> yep
<eamr> hosting is the main-topic and we discuss about money for hosting
<XaViER> it's sad but it's true
<sunblitz> 25,-€ till now from us
<sunblitz> +  -?
<eamr> so we have 55€
<XaViER> we dont have other option now I thinl
<XaViER> think
<Alster> it is not that important, really. if you followed the dsicussions on the mailing lists you'll know that tachanke isn't asking for a monthly rent, but for contributions
<sunblitz> i have no idea what cost a server but i can ask other persons about
<XaViER> and It's pity that ther is no millosh today
<sunblitz> i know people the have some
<Alster> we don't have fixed prices, but we encourage contributions to our costs
<eamr> i hope that simon says something --- SSHINE !
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<XaViER> ok. so we move to the tachanka and give them what we can
<stevo> I think that we can let a message on every Ap to ask people how much they can give each month and then we could have a good idea of how much we can spent in serveur
<XaViER> And it's good idea to make benefit-paties for @pedia - it will be also good way to propagate our project
<sunblitz> also at demonstrations with flyers
<Alster> for now, it's important that you decide on ad really want to work on getting some contributions organized, and that you make a decision as to whether or not to host with tachanka, and that you decide when you want to and tell us on time.
<Alster> everything else can be sorted out alongside
<sunblitz> since?
<XaViER> I don't have money personally, so all I can do is to appeal to others to donate
<stevo> its better than nothig :D
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<eamr> we have a benefit page on meta
<Alster> ad=and
<LLibre> sorry i ve to leave.. to lunch.
<XaViER> so, can we make decision today that we are going to tachanka?
<eamr> llibre sorry do you have a job?
<stevo> ok for making a decision
<Alster> you'll also need to make sure you are able to admin the server(s) we're setting up for you. this is not done by tachanka
<Alster> i'll personally continue helping out if, and only if, others from the hosted projects do it, too.
<stevo> I think the admin wouldn't be a problem
<eamr> alster - other question you stay on anarchopedia or you go back to indymedia
* XaViER sets mode: +o LLibre
<eamr> ich meine bleibst du der sache treu?
<Beta_M> why is it one or another?
<eamr> because the problem with time
<XaViER> can we make decision?
<Beta_M> i say let's move. current setup is shit
<eamr> alster makes also adminstration for indymedia servers
<Beta_M> better move and try to do some fundrasing than to have hours each day downtime
<stevo> ok for moving
<sunblitz> why is the server ofen down?
<Alster> i'll continue with indymedia, tachanka and other rpojects i'm involved in and will also contribute time on anarchopedia if i see that it'S a common process and it's getting somewhere. so i guess my approach is much the same as everyones' on this project.
<Beta_M> it can't handle so many connections
<sunblitz> ok
<Beta_M> search/spam bots often kill it quite fast
<XaViER> I'm also agree to tachanka
<stevo> but is tachanka is able to handle so many connections?
<eamr> google and yahoo also kill the server with 6 boots in same time
<eamr> bots
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<eamr> i trust alster - if he say we should select techanka then i vote for this - millosh vote for this what libre, beta_m and i vote
<stevo> i vote for
<Beta_M> ok, is there anybody who opposes it, or is still undecided
<LLibre> i am ok for tachanka.
* LLibre repause
<Alster> well i am not promising that the resources we are offering will be sufficient to run the server in the way it is currently setup in a perfect way. but you'd have a _minimum_ of 1024 MB RAM which is 2x (or more) of what you have now.
<eamr> rev_22 ?
<eamr> do you know tachanka?
<rev_22> yes, I have read about it in the mailing list and visited the site..
<rev_22> seems fine
<sunblitz> works it better?
<eamr> ok can we get money from italian community?
<XaViER> everything is better than this which is now
<sunblitz> :)
<rev_22> there isn't a donation page in the italian anarchopedia yet
<Alster> in case you consider to have made a suggestion i'd appreciate that someone sends a repl to the thread on the mailing list where this has been discussed previously and states that this is the common decision.
<Alster> s/suggestion/decision(
<eamr> we get 30€ from yugoslavia, 20€ from germany and 5€ from british
<XaViER> so who is against tachanka? any bolsheviks here? ;-)
<stevo> (i m from the french AP)
<eamr> oh
<stevo> héhé
<eamr> 5€ from franch
<eamr> french
<XaViER> so, can we say that the decision is made?
<stevo> i think so
<sunblitz> yes
<eamr> ok next topic internal wiki
<XaViER> APOV?
<eamr> ok
<Beta_M> ok
<stevo> ok
<eamr> :-D
<Beta_M> I viciously oppose any idea of APOV
<XaViER> but there is APOV
<Beta_M> i think that it will create more problems than solve
<XaViER> if you like it or not
<XaViER> there is no NPOV
<Beta_M> i know
<stevo> i think, what is useful to discuss with APOV is
<Beta_M> i'm not for NPOV
<stevo> "anarcho"-capitaliste are accpeted in AP?
<XaViER> so we have to decide ie. if anarchocapitalist, anarchnationalists are APOV
<stevo> yep
<Beta_M> i think that ancaps should be accepted, but marked clearly as such
<XaViER> or bolshevik, prostate point of view should be presentet on @pedia
<XaViER> I oppose
<Beta_M> i don't support misinformation though
<Beta_M> like somebody put some crap saying that Chomsky was ancap
<Beta_M> and supported multinational corps
<Beta_M> that i do *not* support
<Beta_M> there are *some* anarcho-capitalists who are part of anarchist movement
<stevo> I oppose, because in my mind, anarcap is not anarchism so it dont have to be on AP
<Beta_M> for example mutuallists
<stevo> argh!
<XaViER> nutualists are not ancaps!
<stevo> mutuallists is not anarcap :)
<Beta_M> well, then we are stuck on definitions
<stevo> lol :D
<eamr> apov means that articles should have an anarchist statement (not neutral like wikipedia) - anarchist is pluralistic but not anarcho-capitalism and not national-anarchism
<Beta_M> i say that they are
<XaViER> and not pro-state
<XaViER> sexist, rasist etc
<eamr> etc.
<Beta_M> but we can make statements saying that "this governemnt believes that"
<Beta_M> that is what i'm saying
<Beta_M> what about neutral stuff, which is neither anarchist nor-anti-anarchist
<Beta_M> like an article about a 'cat' or something
<XaViER> yes, but on polish apedia someone wrote article full of bulshit about anarchism from leninist point of view
<stevo> it belong to other pedia
<Beta_M> move it to 'Leninist view of anarchism'
<Beta_M> or something
<XaViER> so, if we don't have APOV we cannot reomove it form main article
<Beta_M> because it's important for anarchists to know what leninists think
<XaViER> 'cos "everything can be everywhere"
<Beta_M> ok, i see what you are saying
<Beta_M> i don't say that "everything can be everywhere"
<Beta_M> i say 'don't censor information"
<Beta_M> but you can structure it if you want
<stevo> i agree
<XaViER> we can have article about @capitalism or bolshevism BUT from anarchist point of view
<stevo> yep
<Beta_M> of course if somebody starts to advertise how to kill jews or something, that must be removed
<Beta_M> because that is not information, but an assult
<XaViER> but why if we dont have APOV?
<Beta_M> because it's not a point of view, it's a self defence
<Beta_M> violence is *not* a form of free speech
<XaViER> we have on rasist in poland who belives that he is an anarcho-rasist
<stevo> lol
<Beta_M> i use to be like that
<eamr> leninst is state
<Beta_M> but that's not the point
<XaViER> and I once took part in edition war on wikipedia anarchocapitalists against rest of the world
<XaViER> and I don't want this anymore
<stevo> yep
<Beta_M> i know what you mean
<XaViER> we cannot make common grounf
<XaViER> ground
<Beta_M> yes we can
<XaViER> we have lot of this folks here in poland
<XaViER> and they are completly mads
<eamr> and japan has an anarch-capitalist gevernment ...
<XaViER> mad
<Beta_M> you are dumping all ancaps together
<stevo> in france capitalist have make a wikiberal for liberal and liberarian people
<LLibre> @cap can go sometwhere else (in french web they have their wiki).
<Beta_M> it's like saying "all left wing is leninist"
<LLibre> :)
<XaViER> anarchocapitalists are not anarchists but radical liberals
<stevo> Libre, get out of my mind!
<Beta_M> XaViER:  i disagree with that
<stevo> +1 for XaViER
<Beta_M> many of them are quite conservative
<Beta_M> there are very different ancaps out there
<XaViER> conservative-liberals can also be :-)
<Beta_M> some oppose large corporations and support cooperation
<XaViER> sure, nationalist also oppose corps and support cooperation
<stevo> The problem for me is that capitalism is not compatible with anarchism
<LLibre> @cap are not anarchist like @nationals are not. we can't says that exploiting others peoples is anarchist.
<LLibre> :)
<Beta_M> well was proudhon anarchist?
<Beta_M> he was a sexist, racist, homophobic... etc
<XaViER> proudhon wasn't ancap? who told you that?
<LLibre> but not a capitalist
<eamr> xavier: i have found new words to describe situation in east-block - i wrote in example pseudo-sozialism ... -thats important to set the limit for leninist
<Beta_M> XaViER:  read his stuff
<Beta_M> he was even called 1/2 of an anarchist for believing that women aren't humans
<XaViER> We are talking now about economics
<XaViER> not sexism
<Beta_M> so it's ok to have sexist stuff on apedia?
<stevo> I don't want to defend proudhon but he only think in the way of people from his centuary
<eamr> proudhon is very difficult but he have made very much for anarchism ...
<Beta_M> stevo:  wrong
<stevo> ok
<Beta_M> that's why his comrades called him 1/2 of an anarchist
<LLibre> ? joseph dejacques
<stevo> and desjacque create the word libertaire ;)
<stevo> arf!
<XaViER> Polish anarchopedians never agree with including ancapitalism into anarchism
<Beta_M> the point is that i don't like "purism" or "i'm more anarchist than you" talks
<stevo> I too but but we have to decide if we accept @cap or not
<Beta_M> XaViER:  most of anarchocapitalism is not anarchist
<Beta_M> i agree
<LLibre> then, why putting @cap like an anarchist POV, they are not.
<Beta_M> i don't support an-cap'ism
<sunblitz> i hear first time from anarcocapitalism
<Beta_M> i'm not putting them into APOV
<LLibre> they are libérals radicals.
<Beta_M> i'm saing that there is not such thing as APOV
<Beta_M> every anarchist has one's own POV
<sunblitz> i cant imagine what anarchy have do with capitalism
<stevo> its sure
<Beta_M> there's no "set standard"
<eamr> berkman explained in abc why anarchism without communism and communism without anarchism is inpossible...
<XaViER> So, why you defend it? we have to make common ground. we don;t need sexism (even proudhonian), rasicm (even bakuninist), nationalism and prosatism
<Beta_M> eamr:  i agree with that
<XaViER> and capitalism
<stevo> APOV is to make a deifference with NPOV from wikipedia, capitalism POV, racist POV...
<LLibre> i think we have to know from where come that @cap... cause socialists became liberals, then liberals changed their name to libertarian.
<Beta_M> Bakunin was *not* racist
<stevo> +1 to XaViER
<LLibre> but they stay liberals, then we have not to thiunk they are in our way
<XaViER> for me he had antisemitic features
<XaViER> but it was only exampke
<Beta_M> he was anti-Jewish religion, but not anti-Jewish people
<XaViER> example
<Beta_M> and you have to be nuts to be pro JHWH
<LLibre> in france, we have some radicals, which have some very good text, and we can sometimes think it is @, but it is not, cause they are consefative o r liberals.
<Beta_M> and pro circumcision at birth
<XaViER> We have to agree what is and what is not anarchism on basic ground. I dont want anarcho-statists anarcho-racists anarcho-nationalists and anarcho-capitalists
<LLibre> nor "right anarchists"
<Beta_M> i do'nt want "I'm more anarchist than you"-anarchists
<stevo> so, do we put limit to the POVs in AP? Do we "banish" @cap, racist, sexism...?
<XaViER> we have to make minimum. I hate authoritarianism, be it capitalist or bolshevist
<Beta_M> i think that we need to be "all inclusive" if your views exclude somebody then you are excluded
<Beta_M> this will take care of sexism, capitalism, and nationalism
<Beta_M> etc
<LLibre> capitalism need exploitation and domination, reject all capitalism
<Beta_M> and "I'm more radical than you"
<stevo> if any body could write what he think and what it trust in, its no longer anarchist encyclopedie :)
<eamr> i think in bakunins ideolodgy is the secret service very important
<XaViER> In economic ground anarchocapitalism is nonsense. Capitalism needs state (name it private army or else) to defend property rights
<Beta_M> XaViER:  except on the small scale like in mutualism (yes i know "mutualists are not capitalists" but they are)
<Beta_M> and just to be clear, i oppose mutualism, but wouldn't go out to destroy them
<LLibre> what do you mean by capitalism ?
<eamr> capitalism need protection, states are not important- it can be also others
<Beta_M> i just wouldn't promote them
<sunblitz> we are living in anarcho capitalism :) everyday more
<Beta_M> LLibre:  it supports property rights, and exchange between communities, rather than sharing
<XaViER> see this page: Mutualist.Org: Free Market Anti-Capitalism
<sunblitz> i dont know i dont read so far about anarcocap
<XaViER> Anti-capitalism!
<LLibre> capitalism is private property, salary, benefit from one on others...
<Beta_M> XaViER:  i know that's what they say... but that doesn't make it so
<LLibre> we disagree on what is capitalism
<eamr> sunblitz: fase - in anarchocapitalism -we have free market without state
<eamr> false
<Beta_M> so how the fuck are you planning to create APOV
<XaViER> Proudhon belived in labour theory of value for example capistalist not
<Beta_M> am i getting kicked out?
<Beta_M> Proudhon was pseudo-capitalist in my opinion
<LLibre> if capitalisme is property right an d exchange, then where are the salaries ?.
<eamr> proudhon is the limit between
<Beta_M> LLibre:  mutualists don't have individual sallaries, they are socialists on small scale and capitalists on the large-scale
<XaViER> you can name him pseudo-capitalist, but it isn't anarcho-capitalism
<rev_22> I think there is a problem with some people who prefer to call themselves anarcho-capitalists, but are not really for free-market capitalism
<Beta_M> proudhon is *not* ancap i agree
<sunblitz> state is theater for the masses, they still need it, but not more.. realy not more
<XaViER> anarcho-capitalism is different economic system
<XaViER> than mutualism
<eamr> llibre do you remember our discussion about wertkritik
<Beta_M> XaViER:  in your opinion
<Beta_M> XPOV
<Beta_M> q;-))))
<Beta_M> (sorry)
<LLibre> eamr:: wertkritik ? no.
<eamr> mutualism can be the way not a goal
<Beta_M> eamr:  ok, i can see that
<Beta_M> i still disagree with it
<Beta_M> because means have to be capatible with ends
<LLibre> if we accept @cap, we accept state, power, etc. cause some @cap work for littles states, for littles powers, etc
<stevo> mutualism is more socialism because in proudhon theory it need the self-management of the factories
<XaViER> hey. there is differnece bteween labour theory of value and subiectivist approach, and mutualists are pro-possession not privete property in capitalist meaning
<Beta_M> ok, once again, it is really interesting, but my point wasn't to argue that APOV is different than what you were saying, but that it's very broad.
<Beta_M> if you obsolutely must have it, i am willing to go with it
<Beta_M> but we need to make it broad
<Beta_M> i don't want to become a clique
<eamr> beta_m we need i think 250.000.000 people to make the world-revolution, that means that we need to accept other ways
<rev_22> XaViER: I have seen some people, expecially in the US refer to personal possession as "capitalism"
<rev_22> I don't agree with that... but it is not uncommon in political propaganda
<XaViER> i belive that even in communist society you cannot have thing which is used now by another person
<XaViER> so some kind of possesion will be even in communism
<XaViER> but in communism there will not be market exchange
<XaViER> in big scale
<XaViER> So If we don't want to be a clique why not to invite also bolsheviks on @pedia
* stevo say don't feed the troll
<rev_22> communism opposes small scale markets too...
<Beta_M> stevo:  who is the troll?
<XaViER> rev_22 I was talking about hobbyist exchange like stamps ie ;-)
<stevo> the discussion :D
<rev_22> oh... I'm not following then :)
<Beta_M> ok, ppl i went and proposed the mutual sollution, and nobody responded
<eamr> the problem are not the things what you need for you in the new society , the problem is to declare free goods water, land etc. 
<Beta_M> or have i insulted everybody enough to ignore me
<stevo> no no :)
<LLibre> Beta_M:: what "mutual solution" ?
<rev_22> Beta_M: I agreed with your views, or most of them
<XaViER> we need basic ground
<XaViER> common ground for us
<Beta_M> LLibre:  to have "all inclusive" point of view. In order to post something on @p your views have to include all, not only rich/men/white etc
<eamr> contact anarko-cherura
<XaViER> Polish anarchopedians don't want to make prostatist, prorascist, procapitalist, pronationalist, and prosexist encyclopedia, cos we alredy have one and it's name is wikipedia
<stevo> same thing for the french people
<stevo> (i think :P)
<LLibre> stevo:: it is :]
<eamr> xavier: http://deu.anarchopedia.org/index.php/Projekt:Kommune_Uruguay
<LLibre> capitalism don't need to be helped
<LLibre> nationalism neither
<sunblitz> i heard that a server cost 35 euro
<eamr> du kriegst ihn auch noch billiger
<sunblitz> vollumentariffe koenne teurer werden
<XaViER> so what about Uruguay?
<XaViER> I didn't understand
<eamr> the kommune start next year
<eamr> you sad "common ground for us"
<XaViER> I don't understand german very well
<eamr> i translate it but not today
<LLibre> APOV don't nedd @cap and @nationals on AP. AP can talk about @cap and @nat, but it can't be an APOV. and it is not to say "i am more anarchist than you", it is just their history which say that (lobbying ideologic from the "society mont pelerin")
<stevo> so about the APOV, shall we do a common ground or let the door open to all windows?
<Beta_M> common ground, but only to people who aren't exclusive
<XaViER> llibre i saw that you have started writing APOV article 
<XaViER> on french @pedia
<LLibre> XaViER:: yeap... in eng: too
<eamr> ... or better send an mail to anarko.charrua@gmail.com
<rev_22> I agree with adopting the "anarchists points of view"
<XaViER> The first axiom should be that we are against authoritarian institutuions and relations, be it captalist, rascists, sexists, statist or else
<LLibre> XaViER:: meta:
<eamr> beta_m give xavier the link to your first prodcast ;-)
<XaViER> so there cannot be inclusion of procapitalist, prostatist etc etc. points of view
<Beta_M> it's on freedom.libsyn.com
<LLibre> in french : http://fra.anarchopedia.org/index.php/Anarchopedia:Points_De_Vue_Anarchiste
<XaViER> where is it on meta?
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<LLibre> i am searching i don't find it
<eamr> hm nobody wrote it ;-)
<XaViER> can you put it in english on APOV as a proposition?
<XaViER> APOV=meta
<LLibre> ok, i can
<XaViER> we can work over this to the next GM
<LLibre> http://66.249.93.104/translate_c?u=http://fra.anarchopedia.org/index.php/Anarchopedia:Points_De_Vue_Anarchiste
<XaViER> and on next GM we can decide
<LLibre> then ? @cap are on or out ?
<LLibre> out, if capitalists are not accepted
<XaViER> out, or polish @pedia will secede
<LLibre> ok with that...
<stevo> (argh! no! not a secede! please)
<XaViER> :-)
<XaViER> but I can agree to include mutualism or anarchoindividualism even if Im'm social anarchist, but NOT capitalism
<XaViER> and also prawdapunk from polish @pedia thinks like that
<Beta_M> so what are we deciding, or are we threatening each other
<rev_22> I think that expecially in the US some mutualists prefer to call themselves anarcho-capitalist
<rev_22> so before banning or censoring anarcho-capitalism we should provide a clear definition for it
<XaViER> I don't know any mutualist who call himselg @cap, but maybe I'm wrong
<rev_22> ok, maybe I can find some example
<XaViER> mutualism = LTV + possesion
<XaViER> capitalism = STV+ capitalist private property
<stevo> LTV? STV?
<XaViER> Labor vs subiectivist theory of value
<stevo> ok
<Beta_M> helloooo? people seem to be writing articles on anarchopedias regarding the issue, i still don't understand what we agreed to
<Beta_M> from the sound of it everybody *is* just ignoring what i'm saying
<XaViER> but i know that even between mutualists there is no agreement if they are anarchists or not
<XaViER> so this is not clear
<stevo> i think that mutualism is more the exchange of goods for there true value (eye for eye, teeth for teeth, live for live as proudhon said)
<Beta_M> there is no "true value" though
<Beta_M> 0-sum doesn't work
<XaViER> tell this proudhon ;-)
<Beta_M> anyhow somebody say to me what is going on
<stevo> arf I m very bad with english :S
<stevo> yes so what going on?
<eamr> stevo but the value is the base of capitalism
<stevo> (thats wy there is no value, the true value is exatly what it cost you to produce it)
<eamr> value in general
<LLibre> maybe we try to make an APOV article, rejecting @cap
<sunblitz> <rev_22> so before banning or censoring anarcho-capitalism we should provide a clear definition for it ... my opinion
* Beta_M begins to bang the head on the table
<stevo> yes its a good idea
* stevo try stop Beta_M: don't worry it gonna be fine
<rev_22> sunblitz: well I'm against censorship actually
<sunblitz> i dont followed , i was on other channels
<XaViER> yes I'm against censorsip too, so what?
<sunblitz> i read now, i dont ignoring sokeone
<XaViER> I just don't want wikipedia shit on @pedia see again
<Beta_M> XaViER:  but you will
<sunblitz> i cant make definision now about
<Beta_M> precisely because of the definitions you are coming up with
<stevo> so why comming on AP then?
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<XaViER> stevo to who you talking now?
<eamr> i'm not against censorship
<stevo> to Beta_M beause he say you will when you where talking about wikipedia shit :)
<Beta_M> huh?
<Beta_M> sorry i don't understand
<XaViER> yes, why we need @pedia if it will be the same as wiki bullshit
<Beta_M> but you are making it the same as wiki bullshit
<stevo> ha!
<Beta_M> there will be a few people (us) controlling what is allowed to be put here
<stevo> no!
<Beta_M> the only difference will be who is in control
<Beta_M> i don't want to be a master
<stevo> me too
* rev_22 sets mode: +o lutin
<Beta_M> that is why i oppose censorshit
<XaViER> we have to decide basics, not all content
<Beta_M> that's why i left wikipedia
<stevo> the problem is if we allow capitalism, sexism, racism... its no more @pedia :S
<XaViER> what is and what is not for @pedia
<Beta_M> but then it should be clear that APOV is the guide not a set of laws
<stevo> yes a guide not a law
<Beta_M> you are beginning to sound like you are setting something in stone
<stevo> good definition
<XaViER> and what is the difference between guide and law?
<Beta_M> anarchy is an evolving set of standards, if we try to say "this is what we are for" we'll be timing ourselves
<stevo> no, we are to platformist (sorry)
<XaViER> of course we are not platformists
<Beta_M> stevo:  i have less problem with platformism after seeing what they do
<rev_22> XaViER: a difference is that a law is applied by a goverment or police force
<Beta_M> i do have problem with censorshit though
<XaViER> no, law can be applied also by ppl
<Beta_M> rev_22:  not only that, law can be applied by vigilantees
<Beta_M> it's the same bull shit still
<LLibre> then a fascist come on @pedia and write that violence is good  and for aristocraty, we accept it ?
<eamr> you can feel as you like it, but i delete articles if i dislike it . dot.
<LLibre> cause it is against censorship ...
<Beta_M> no, we don't, LLibre, the reason why we don't is because that limits the audience
<Beta_M> listen to what i'm saying and please don't put words in my mouth
<XaViER> but why to make anarchist encyclopedia, when every point of view is as good as other. It's postmodernist shit
<XaViER> not anarchist
<LLibre> Beta_M:: i was taking in gehgeral not about what you say... sorry for confusion ;)
<Beta_M> XaViER:  your means have to be capatible with your ends, you can't create anarchist society by being closed
<Beta_M> what's the point of creating anarchist wiki, if we are just inventing the same crap as any other one
<rev_22> XaViER: ordinary people can follow laws, not apply them on others..
<XaViER> Yes I'm closed on rasicsim, nationalism, sexism, homofobia, capitalism etc
<Beta_M> we are suppose to be challanging the social norms, not putting ourselves at the top of existing structures
<stevo> Beta_M: but its not an anarchist encyclopedia if every point of view is represented :)
<XaViER> and generally I'm close on authrotitarianism
<Beta_M> stevo:  do you realise that anarchist revolution will have only a proportion of anarchists
<Beta_M> whole world will not become anarchist... ever
<XaViER> You sholud write postmodernist encyclopedia beta_m not anarchist
<Beta_M> i'm not postmodernist
<stevo> Beta_M: no
<eamr> anarchism need trust but you can't trust every person in internet
<Beta_M> anarchism is not a 'never never land with no pirates'
<XaViER> So even if whole world cannot be anarchist, so let the @pedia be anarchist at least
<Beta_M> XaViER:  yes, but not by compromising anarchist objectives
<stevo> The problem is that if a communist, a capitalist, a nationalist could write with his POV, its no longer an anarchist encyclopedia
<XaViER> where I compromise objectives?
<Beta_M> by imploying censorship, which is a tool of domination
<Beta_M> it's like anarchists droping nuclear bombs on white house
<Beta_M> it will be idiotic
<Beta_M> because no matter why they were doing it, they have already compromised themselves
<XaViER> this is not censorship? if @capitalist or fascist make their encyclopedia this is their encyclopedia
<stevo> I don't see were is censorship
<XaViER> but don't make pulp from anarchism
<eamr> beta_m yes it is a tool of domination correctly - it is the fight against foreign domination from mainstream
<XaViER> everything is ok. nationliasm, fascism sexism is ok
<Beta_M> like i said, i don't mind insisting that a person doesn't post stuff that conflicts with anarchist principles. But if you say that you can't post because you are ____ (insert any lable here) that is censorship
<XaViER> let's go, make nationalist projects on @Pedia
<Beta_M> XaViER:  no i didn't say that nationalism is ok
<XaViER> down with censorship!
<XaViER> Long live Adolf Hitler!
<XaViER> Sieg heil!
<LLibre> is having a cultural a censorship ?
<sunblitz> ?
<XaViER> 'cmon. don't be silly
<eamr> i don't censor by political fraction of writer , i censor by content of article
<XaViER> APOV isn't the same as censorship
<LLibre> APOv is a project
<Beta_M> noam chomsky said "Alolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were also for the freedom of speech of views they agreed with. But being for freedom of speech means being for freedom of speech precisely for the views your dispise"
<LLibre> a project without @cap/@nat
<Beta_M> and i agree with that
<eamr> we live in a world with repression and if you not fight against this you died
<Beta_M> not allowing somebody spread hate on the wiki is one thing
<XaViER> hey, I'm not king of internet
<Beta_M> but cesnoring somebody's opinion is a different thing
<stevo> I think that you would not saw any racist article in an anarchist paper, it is censorship too?
<XaViER> Fascists have their sites on www
<LLibre> we can write that @cap anbd @nat is not ana @ POV, and letting some peoples wriyi,g what they want, and after making APOV
<Beta_M> but why are we deciding what is or isn't APOV?
<Beta_M> what if a person who shows up tomorrow disagrees with us?
<XaViER> because this is anarchist encyclopedia
<Beta_M> what do we say?
<LLibre> our anarchist cultural.
<XaViER> not "everything is ok" encyclopedia
<XaViER> or Hyde Park
<Beta_M> "Sorry, but we already decided that anarchists only eat eggs, writing article about not eating eggs is not APOV"
<XaViER> or discussion board
<stevo> just say: "hey man, its not your mother's encyclopedia!" :D
<XaViER> this is encyclopedia by and for anarchists
<stevo> I think that you would not saw any racist article in an anarchist paper, it is censorship too?
<Beta_M> XaViER:  yes
<LLibre> then fascuist can write free articles on @pedia
<eamr> if we let a bad article survive , the next come - read the article - and we loose him , because false-understanding pluralism
<LLibre> ? Beta_M 
<Beta_M> LLibre:  what?
<LLibre> if we don"t say what is APOv, then a fascist pretend to be @, then all is ok 
<stevo> anarchy is not chaos :)
<Beta_M> that is why i oppose the idea of APOV all together
<Beta_M> because it only brings division and chaos
<XaViER> steve that's right
<Beta_M> but i'm willing to play your little games for now, and say ok, let's make APOV
<eamr> if we don't have censorship- one man can destroy the anarchopedia
<LLibre> no, cause theres a lot of APOV
<XaViER> and beta_m is an agent of chaos and postmodernism :-)
<Beta_M> fuck off
<stevo> XaViER: i disagree
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<eamr> beta_m is green-anarchism ;-)
<Beta_M> eamr:  i'm myself
<Beta_M> i don't use lables
<Beta_M> i agree with green anarchism, individualism, etc... 
<Beta_M> but that's not the point
<eamr> but you use flags :-p
<Beta_M> just for the demos, they are fun to wave
<stevo> lol
<Beta_M> but i want to burn all the flags one of those days
<Beta_M> even anarchist ones
<Beta_M> because they are dumb
<XaViER> APOV is needed, because power what is pov and what is not POV will be in hands of few
<XaViER> and will not be clear
<XaViER> what is this encyclopedia is for
* guest-de has quit IRC (Client Quit)
<Beta_M> ok... like i said, i'm willing to go with it for now...
<Beta_M> but let's make it as inclusive and evolving as possible
<stevo> Anarchopedia is an encyclopedia with anarchist content. So we have to choose what is anarchist content, otherwise any body could destroy the encylcopedia by changing it to his point of view!
<XaViER> This article don;t have to be long
<XaViER> but we have basic principles
<LLibre> i will try to enounce all that
<Beta_M> what i said before if you are excluding a some group with your idea, then it doesn't belong on anarchopedia
<stevo> yes, why not try to write on en vote for it in the next GM
<Beta_M> if you say "Women aren't humans" or "Homosexuals are sinners" or whatever
<LLibre> and we will decide it to the next session
<Beta_M> if you excite violence then it doesn't belong either
<LLibre> stevo:: yes
<XaViER> ie. If we make State article If I were beta_m I should accept even prostate views. This is not tolerable on anarchist encyclopedia
<eamr> beta_m what is a sinner?
<stevo> Its ok XaViER i think weve done with this discussion
<Beta_M> somebody who is going to hell
<eamr> ok
<Beta_M> XaViER:  i'd not accept pro-state views
<Beta_M> you weren't listening to me
<stevo> pliiiiizzzzzz stop fighting!
<XaViER> but if there will not be APOV you have to accept pro-state views on @pedia!
<Beta_M> no
<stevo> we have enought facist to fight, we dont need inner fighting!
<Beta_M> as i've already said about 20 times
<Beta_M> in fact with APOV it'll be harder to fight pro-state articles
<Beta_M> and pro-state propaganda
<stevo> what?!!!
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<XaViER> and who can frobid someone prostate views if there are no rules that defend you against this?
<XaViER> you start to fight?
<eamr> we have one other topic: body to control damain
<eamr> domain
<Beta_M> i'll write my idea up for the next general meeting
<stevo> so can we close this topic and try to write something one the meta and then vote for it in the next meeting?
<Beta_M> XaViER:  take a few breaths, i'm not your enemy
<eamr> LOVE
<Beta_M> PEACE
<Beta_M> HAPPINESS
<Beta_M> BUDDHISM
* Beta_M ducks
<stevo> Cmon guys, shake your hand and have a f*** it would be ok
<XaViER> hah. but you're my adversary in discussion :-)
<eamr> uh religion
<sunblitz> hehe
<stevo> so can we close this topic and try to write something one the meta and then vote for it in the next meeting?
<Beta_M> ok
<XaViER> I wrote it hour ago :-)
<LLibre> i ve to leave the discussion... ican finish the translating on meta:, and to work on and seei,ng that later AG
<eamr> again we have one other topic: body to control damain
<eamr> o
<eamr> millosh is atm only owner of domain, we want to change it
<stevo> so lets move to this topic :) (and there is people saying that anarchist couldnt decide of something without splitting :) )
<stevo> cya libre
<LLibre> i can't continue AG, ... bye all
<LLibre> cu stevo 
<eamr> lova
<eamr> love
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<eamr> fucking keyboard
<stevo> lol
<stevo> how could we change this state of thing for he domain?
<stevo> *the
<XaViER> I don't know, because domains are registered by persons, AFAIK
<eamr> best is that we write owner=anarchopedia-organization  - but is it possible?
<Beta_M> unless we have some sort of 'legal entity'
<Beta_M> like a corp or non-for proffit org
<stevo> so what can wedo wih this?
<XaViER> it will be hard to register associacion on international level
<stevo> yep
<XaViER> so maybe we sholud rotating this?
<eamr> wikipedia is registed by jimbo wales....
<stevo> bad example...
<eamr> if we can't registred as organization - we somebody who gives his name
<stevo> An idea: one of us register the domain bame, then we kill him and its like if the domain name belong to nobody :D (sorry)
<eamr> perhaps sockspuppet
<eamr> then we take you ;-)
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<stevo> arf ok, for the love of anarchy! :P
* stevo sets mode: +o Beta_M
<eamr> yes let us make love-war :-p
* stevo sets mode: +o olav_
<XaViER> I think that we should talk about this with Millosh
<stevo> yep
<eamr> millosh like that he is not only owner
<stevo> but how could we do that?
<XaViER> let's discuss this on email list
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<Beta_M> so the fun is over?
<XaViER> there wasn't much fun, but we have to discuss how to better communication with other @pedians
<XaViER> ie. there are strange ppl registered on chinese @pedia
<Beta_M> "strange"?
<Beta_M> i mean ... i'm quite strange.
<Beta_M> q;-)
<XaViER> yes. use babelfish to translate
<Beta_M> can't you tell me?
<XaViER> no, because you should see it with your own eyes and decide if it is or not strange
<XaViER> for me it is enoug
<XaViER> h
<Beta_M> well, give me a link at least
<XaViER> to babelfish?
<Beta_M> to somebody's profile
<Beta_M> that's what you meant i should translate, right?
<Beta_M> or am i missing something
<XaViER> there isn't much articles there now
<Beta_M> ok, i'll have a look
<XaViER> but it's good to see ppl from all anarchopedias here and on email list
<stevo> for the moment I have only found articles about mathematics
<rev_22> are they APOV ? :)
<Beta_M> rev_22:  lol
<Beta_M> no, they accomulate the wealth
<Beta_M> they shouldn't add anything only divide
<XaViER> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fchi.anarchopedia.org%2findex.php%2fKOS-MOS
<XaViER> don't be ironic
<stevo> ...
<stevo> its a video game??
<XaViER> http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?lp=zt_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fchi.anarchopedia.org%2findex.php%2f%25E7%25BE%258E%25E5%25B0%2591%25E5%25A5%25B3
<XaViER> there isn't much about anarchism on this @pedia, only mathematics, and smething like this
<XaViER> I don't want to delete it as now, but I would like to know what is going on there
<Beta_M> i think they are doing about the same thing as i was, just making an anarchist version of general encyclopaedia
<stevo> For sure :S
<stevo> I think its not the aim of AP :(
<Beta_M> I think it is
<stevo> what???
<Beta_M> "Anarchy in action, not in theory"
<stevo> lol
<Beta_M> no really
<Beta_M> because when i argue with people about anarchy the first thing they say is "so what have anarchists actually produced"
<Beta_M> i'd like to say, look at anarchapedia
<stevo> pfff
<Beta_M> and if they go and see that all the articles are only about anarchism they will say, well fascists did the same about fascism
<XaViER> but the problem is that there is no anarchism on this @pedia
<Beta_M> but if this is something that is actually used by people, as an alternative to wikipedia and stuff, then they'll learn about what anarchy actually is
<XaViER> only cartoons and maths
<stevo> and its anarchist people who wrote
<stevo> don't think so
<Beta_M> there are some religious articles there too
<Beta_M> and some general stuff like that
<stevo> for me, anarchopedia is not to show people how anarchy is, but what anarchy is.
<stevo> to show how it is, you must make it :)
<XaViER> I'm not against cartoons, but there is almost no article about anarchism
<XaViER> And this is the problem
<Beta_M> but you won't, if people believe that we are only throwing rocks at windows
<XaViER> ????
<Beta_M> that was to stevo
<Beta_M> you won't make anarchy without having seeds of it within current society
<Beta_M> we aren't maxists who destroy everything and then try to build something
<XaViER> anarchism is about unity of theory and action
<stevo> that why you must show WHAT is anarchy :)
<Beta_M> exactly
<XaViER> but this is not the topic
<Beta_M> it's not?
<XaViER> I wonder how to contact with someone who can speak chinese
<XaViER> and start present to chinese ppl anarchist ideas
<Beta_M> hmm, i use to have a friend who was from HK, but i lost contact with him
<rev_22> they often understand some english
<Beta_M> there are chinese anarchists already
<Beta_M> think global ACT LOCAL
<XaViER> maybe they want to write but don't have too much sources in theoir language
<Beta_M> i laugh at ppl who go to islael to stop the millitary there, and don't understand that they can be more effective in their own community
<stevo> arf, Beta_M i've only received your mail now :P
<Beta_M> XaViER:  that's a good point
<XaViER> we sholud start propaganda in chinese :-)
<Beta_M> lol
<XaViER> 1 mld of ppl to revolutionize
<XaViER> :-)
<Beta_M> you start... i'm right behind you
<XaViER> I know one guy who lives in china now
<Beta_M> i've seen documentaries showing what CCP did to buddhist non-violent monks
<sunblitz> cina works on a censored internet, ?!
<Beta_M> i don't want to find out what will happen to anarchists
<Beta_M> china *does* censor internet
<sunblitz> or its open?
<stevo> its censored
<XaViER> but I wonder if he starts writing about anarchism it can be bad to him
<Beta_M> they have the strongest censorship system for the network
<XaViER> he is esperantist
<Beta_M> tell an about Freenet
<XaViER> so he is close to anarchism
<Beta_M> this way the person can protect one's identity and still write/read
<XaViER> hm. I have to contact with him and ask in polish, a I hope that chinese don't know polish very well ;-)
<Beta_M> lol, that won't last long
<XaViER> some say that polish is harder to learn that chinese :-)
<XaViER> that=than
<Beta_M> i doubt it
<XaViER> he said that :-)
<Beta_M> oh, well for him it's true
<sunblitz> i think it is not a good idea to publish the ip´s from authors toall
<Beta_M> well, i'm off... i need to finish the assignment that is due tomorrow
<XaViER> yes. we should think about this in totalitarian countries
<sunblitz> on ap
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<Beta_M> XaViER:  if i insulted you somehow it wasn't intentional... peace
<XaViER> ok. peace
<XaViER> it would be great to make iranian @pedia :-)
<stevo> sunblitz: mediawiki work like that. The only wayto change it is to program it
<stevo> before you need iranian anarchists :)
<sunblitz> is not posibel to work with a tor
<sunblitz> automaticly
<XaViER> no, to become anarchist you have first to know what is anarchism
<stevo> sunblitz: if I remember, the using of tor depend on the user's computer
<sunblitz> well people need to install it
<stevo> yep
<sunblitz> ok
<XaViER> we have to start in Chinese and Iranian system apt-get anarchism :-)
<stevo> but it would be a good idea to make an help page "how to use TOR" :)
<XaViER> we need more anarchist translators
<sunblitz> it where nice using the free space from the newserver us tor server
<XaViER> maybe it would be good to prepare announcement that we are looking chinese, arabic, etc. translators
<XaViER> looking for
<slow-away> [21:06:06] <Beta_M> because they are dumb < yes, only blach. no funny colours
<XaViER> ?
<slow-away> sorry was reading the whole discussion of the last hours
<stevo> lol
<sunblitz> :)
<stevo> we have finish the GM?
<XaViER> I think that we can end now