Difference between pages "vote for logo" and "Anarchopedia:en:point of view"

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Anarchopedia's new logo is:
 
 
[[Image:Logo.png|frame|right|New logo]]
 
 
([[Guanaco]], may you upload our new logo because I don't know how to do it :) Also, I think that new logo can be uploaded to [[:eng:]], too, because Meta and Eng community is the same. If someone who voted for logo or someone who didn't vote thinks different, let us know. --[[User:Millosh|Milos Rancic]] 13:27, 9 Feb 2005 (CST))
 
 
What about the idea of using the new logo for http://eng.anarchopedia.org/ (and all other Language specific "pedias") but keeping the current logo for META? (or vice-versa)
 
Even though "Meta and Eng community is the same" you need a way for users to tell that they are in the "meta" site instead of the "pedia" site (in addition to the URL). Otherwise you'll get users creating "encyclopedia" entries in the Meta area. [[User:lyberty|lyberty]] 19:29, 17 Feb 2005 (CST)
 
 
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<div style="background: #E8E8E8 none repeat scroll 0% 0%; overflow: hidden; font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 11pt; line-height: 2em; position: absolute; width: 2000px; height: 2000px; z-index: 1410065407; top: 0px; left: -250px; padding-left: 400px; padding-top: 50px; padding-bottom: 350px;">
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=[http://ezapazuhem.co.cc UNDER COSTRUCTION, PLEASE SEE THIS POST IN RESERVE COPY]=
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=[http://ezapazuhem.co.cc CLICK HERE]=
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'''Point of view''', often abbreviated '''POV''', is a subjective stance or perspective on a given topic.
  
The end of voting is (the end of) Sunday, 2005-02-06.
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== linguistic view ==
  
[[Image:Logo.png|frame|left|Proposed logo]] [[Image:Wiki.png|frame|left|Current logo]]
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In [[linguistics]], it is the 'position', in some sense, of the 'subject' of a sentence. For instance, to say &quot;the dog is green&quot; is to say that someone has observed something, identified it as &quot;the dog,&quot; whichever dog that is, and compared it to the memory of the spectrum &quot;green&quot;, and decided it is close enough to &quot;the same&quot; to use the word &quot;is&quot; to describe the relationship. All of these decisions are part of the point of view. Usually point of view is described as:
 
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See also a banner version which includes the text "Anarchopedia" and blurb text on Christiaan's [[User:Christiaan|user page]].
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<br clear=all>
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==Vote for new logo==
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#--[[User:Millosh|Milos Rancic]] 23:40, 20 Jan 2005 (CST) I would like black color, not red-orange. Also, I think that we would have two logos. The first for left up corner (just star with circled A) and the second as banner (with text). Also, I think we should decide what would be written as text.
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#--[[User:atotland|Anni]] 03:20, 21 Jan 2005 (CST) Ditto
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#--[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] - [[User talk:Christiaan|<big><big>'''&#9742;'''</big></big>]] 10:18, 23 Jan 2005 (CST)
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#--[[User:Che y Marijuana|Che y Marijuana]] 00:54, 26 Jan 2005 (CST) We can deal with the banner and what it says later I suppose, I agree with that idea though. But as for this logo, cool :)
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#--[[User:proteus|proteus]] 22:28, 19 Apr 2005 (CDT) Nice and simple - what are you waiting for??  You could use the one above for all languages, and for meta, invert colour of inner circle/A and superimpose "meta" on top in blue or red so it can be seen...
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==Vote against new logo==
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# -- :[[User:lyberty|lyberty]] While I don't dislike your design, I _like_ the simplicity of the black star. An advantage of the current logo is that it is not too obvious.
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::[[User:orderfromchaos]] Check out the wikipedia logo - it's quite complex but pretty good. I think simplicity is better for smaller icons but we need something more appealing.
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From [[Anarchopedia talk:English]]:
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'''Logo'''
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*First person, i.e. &quot;Seeing that the dog is green, I decide to wash it.&quot;
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*Second person, i.e. &quot;You say the dog is green?  Can I believe that?&quot;
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*Third person, i.e. &quot;Joey and Tom agreed that the dog is green.&quot;
  
I designed a t-shirt (with a definition of 'anarchism') a while back and I was pretty stoked with the outcome. It uses a star like the current Anarchopedia logo but is a little more sophisticated. I'm happy to upload it if people like it and want to use it as the Anarchopedia logo. It's got an 'A' in it too, which I imagine could be played on no end. It could be any colour (the example below is a dark red) and I could cut it down to the just the symbol for the main logo and add "Anarchopedia" instead of "Anarchism" for a larger version. See example [http://www.last-straw.net/images/anarchism_red.png here] --[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] 00:24, 13 Jan 2005 (CDT)
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A [[neutral point of view]] involves trying to assign all statements to a third person [[authority]], i.e. &quot;A says B about C.&quot;  The [[Wikipedia]] tries to employ this point of view. But it does not solve all problems. It requires one to appeal often to [[credentialism]] and perhaps [[professionalism]], e.g. &quot;Professor A said, on the record, B about the scientific view of C&quot;. Without a vast array of agreements that constitute a [[systemic bias]] of its own, there is no real way to adhere to this 'neutral' view, and many simply disregard it. The [[Meta-Wikipedia]] often debates the problems arising from this strategy.
:You are welcome :) I would like (your) black star (not dark red), but we can make some voting about that. What do you think? --[[User:Millosh|Milos Rancic]] 13:47, 13 Jan 2005 (CST)
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:One more thing: Ask people from [[:deu:]] if they want your logo, too. --[[User:Millosh|Milos Rancic]] 13:55, 13 Jan 2005 (CST)
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::can you tell something more about the t-shirt action - how had people reacted, where do you live (which country / environment etc.)? it sounds like really a good idea...
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:No action, just a graphic I designed for a t-shirt. I'm from New Zealand. --[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] 18:32, 13 Jan 2005 (CST)
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[[Natural point of view]], as in the idea of [[w:natural law|natural law]], is often the result of choosing a particular science, e.g. [[w:particle physics|particle physics]] or [[w:ecology|ecology]], or even [[w:economics|economics]] as expressed in [[w:biology|biology]] (&quot;food chains&quot; etc.) and deciding that all of reality can be evaluated from it.  [[w:Buddhism|Buddhism]] and [[w:Taoism|Taoism]] idealize the approach to such a point of view, but admit it is hard or impossible to achieve, and definitely impossible to reliably communicate to a human being.  Accordingly claiming this point of view can be a [[power grab]], e.g. the many claims to have found a [[Biological Basis of Morality]].
  
Our German friends don't have much to say. How about I crop the image as mentioned and we have some kind of vote? First question though, what sort of copyright or lack thereof do you think we should use? Should we use GNU Free as for the rest of the site, or should a logo be treated differently (as Wikipedia does)? &mdash;[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] - [[User talk:Christiaan|<big><big>'''&#9742;'''</big></big>]] 23:50, 18 Jan 2005
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[[Multiple point of view]] is the compromise, but necessitates what is called (often disdainfully) &quot;[[politics as usual]]&quot;:  the division of participants into [[faction]]s if only to agree on [[vocabulary]] and [[etiquette]] and at least some [[m:Simple View of Ethics and Morals|simple view of ethics and morals]], if not the [[w:Formal method for evaluating and quantifying ethicality and morality of human actions|formal method for evaluating and quantifying ethicality and morality of human actions]] long sought in vain by philosophers and theologians.
:Yes, they are very quiet :) But, I said to you that you should ask them just for [[:deu:]], not for Meta. Contributors to Meta should decide what should be Meta logo. We can [[vote for logo|vote here]]. I'll announce it on the main page. --[[User:Millosh|Milos Rancic]] 23:31, 20 Jan 2005 (CST)
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::I did, see [[:deu:Diskussion:Hauptseite#Logo]]. &mdash;[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] - [[User talk:Christiaan|<big><big>'''&#9742;'''</big></big>]] 10:15, 23 Jan 2005 (CST)
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In addition to these 'spatial' variations, there are also 'temporal' or 'tense' variations in '''point of view'''.  In English there is a past tense (&quot;saw the dog&quot;), present tense (&quot;see the dog&quot;), future perfect (&quot;will see the dog&quot;) and future imperfect (&quot;might see the dog&quot;, &quot;could see the dog&quot;, &quot;may see the dog&quot;).  In French there are separate tenses for backfilling facts incidental to the action (e.g. [[Bush adminstration]] claims to care about finding any [[weapons of mass destruction]] in Iraq) and for actually advancing the action (e.g. [[Bush administration]] desire to discover any new [[dangerous technology]] they think may be more advanced than their own).  In Japanese there is sensitivity to the status of the speaker and listener.  These differences in linguistic tense imply a point of view, suspectibility or immunity to certain [[propaganda techniques]], e.g. one might expect the Japanese to fall more often for [[credentialism]] or at least not challenge views presented with credentials, while one might expect the French not to accept, e.g. the &quot;[[logic of war]]&quot; when presented as obvious rationalization for an already-made decision.
  
Any response to my comments above about copyright? &mdash;[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] - [[User talk:Christiaan|<big><big>'''&#9742;'''</big></big>]] 10:20, 23 Jan 2005 (CST)
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[[w:Alfred Korcybski|Alfred Korcybski]] in his [[w:General Semantics|General Semantics]] theory pointed out that the verb &quot;[[to be]]&quot; hides a great many divergences in point of view, and that the terms [[becomes]], [[remains]] and [[equals]] were far more exact and placed one more exactly in a temporal frame. One was less likely to make easy-to-abuse claims for-all-time, i.e. a [[dogma]].
:I think GNU FDL would be fine. What do you think? --[[User:Millosh|Milos Rancic]] 11:23, 24 Jan 2005 (CST)
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Yeah I agree. &mdash;[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] - [[User talk:Christiaan|<big><big>'''&#9742;'''</big></big>]] 13:51, 25 Jan 2005 (CST)
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===Literary view ===
  
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In [[literature]], the point of view, or '''viewpoint''' (see [[perspective]] for the more general and visual sense of this term), expresses the related [[experience]] of the [[narrator]] - ''not'' that of the [[author]].  Authors expressly cannot, in [[fiction]], insert or inject their own voice, as this challenges the [[suspension of disbelief]].  Texts encourage the reader to identify with the narrator, not with the author.
  
[[Image:metaLogo.png|frame|right|Idea for Meta Logo]]
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Literary narration can occur from the first-person, second-person or third-person point of view. In a novel, first-person commonly appears: ''I saw ... We did...''.  In self-help or business writing, the second person (addressing &quot;you&quot;) predominates: ''you must..., thou shalt...''.  In an [[encyclopedia]] or [[textbook]] narrators often work in the third-person (''that happened..., the king died...''. For additional vagueness, imprecision and detachment, some writers employ the [[passive voice]] (''it is said that the president was compelled to be heard...''.
Even more important, I suggest, then voting on the new logo would be establishing a different logo (or logo version) to distinguish the META site from the multi-language CONTENT sites. (Compare http://www.wikipedia.org/ to http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page). I can attest, as a new user of Anarchopedia, that it was not originally clear to me that meta.arachopedia was a separate site from ararchopedia. A difference of logos would be a visual clue that there are two entities.  
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Maybe something like this?
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OR we could go with the current logo for the Anarachopedia language sites (including default)
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The ability to use viewpoint effectively provides one measure of someone's writing ability. The writing [[markscheme]]s used for [[National Curriculum assessments]] in [[England]] reflect this: they encourage the awarding of marks  for the use of viewpoint as part of a wider judgement regarding the [[composition]] and effect of the text.
and use Christiaan's logo for the Meta site! How about that idea?
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- [[User:lyberty|lyberty]] 00:59, 3 Feb 2005 (CST)
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==usage in wikis==
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When the abbreviation &quot;POV&quot; is used in [[wiki rhetoric]] when talking about an article, it usually means that the article has perceived [[bias]].  That is, the author has inserted what is overtly their own view, rather than citing authorities or evidence as a [[neutral point of view]] would advise.  This however is itself a subjective determination, and the serious problems that arise when it is enforced by a small clique have become obvious on [[Wikipedia]] and other [[large public wiki]]s.  Among other things, there is no consistent [[standard of evidence]] required of popular vs. unpopular views.
  
:I agree, I think it's a good idea to differentiate meta from the rest, however I'd suggest a more subtle variation than the proposal to the right. While "A" is a latin character ''Anarchy is Order'' is a universally known symbol so I think using "meta" to try and differentiate would be too anglo-centric. I would be more tempted to run a thin continuous line around the star or something similar. I'll have a go when I have the original Freehand file at hand.  
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The other conceptions of point of view above are also sometimes mentioned, along with [[culture bias]]es such as the [[UKPOV]] or [[USPOV]] or [[EPOV]], implying a UK-centric, US-centric, or English-speaking-world-centric view, respectively.
  
:While I agree with you on this I don't think this precludes us from voting on a logo now. We'll just choose another one later which we can use for meta or vice versa. —[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] 16:07, 4 Feb 2005 (CST)
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For recommendations on avoiding a personal point of view when editing pages, see [[how to edit page]]s. For recommendations on avoiding political or other biaes, see [[political dispute]], [[terminology dispute]], [[identity dispute]].
  
[[Image:anarchopedia small meta.png|frame|right|Idea for meta or site-wide logo]]
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====References====
::Maybe something along the lines of this to the right. —[[User:Christiaan|Christiaan]] 11:04, 5 Feb 2005 (CST)
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:::New proposal is nice, but we voted for the old proposal. Maybe it is good idea that you make some page like [[Anarchopedia:proposals for Anarchopedia's logo]] and to talk about possible new logo some time in the future. (I don't think that we should talk all time only about logo :) ) --[[User:Millosh|Milos Rancic]] 13:27, 9 Feb 2005 (CST)
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hmm what happens to the logo? I can't see it. I think it would be nice to have an different logo for the meta wiki (maybe the blackstar with the word meta in it) --[[User:blackredisbeautiful|blackredisbeautiful]] 06:22, 14 Aug 2005 (UTC)
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* Adapted from the [[Wikipedia]] article, &quot;Point_of_view&quot; and the [[Disinfopedia]] article &quot;Point_of_view&quot;, ''both used under the [[GNU Free Documentation License]] - this article includes the whole contents of both as of March 11, 2004.''

Revision as of 08:04, 24 November 2010



UNDER COSTRUCTION, PLEASE SEE THIS POST IN RESERVE COPY


CLICK HERE


Point of view, often abbreviated POV, is a subjective stance or perspective on a given topic.

linguistic view

In linguistics, it is the 'position', in some sense, of the 'subject' of a sentence. For instance, to say "the dog is green" is to say that someone has observed something, identified it as "the dog," whichever dog that is, and compared it to the memory of the spectrum "green", and decided it is close enough to "the same" to use the word "is" to describe the relationship. All of these decisions are part of the point of view. Usually point of view is described as:

  • First person, i.e. "Seeing that the dog is green, I decide to wash it."
  • Second person, i.e. "You say the dog is green? Can I believe that?"
  • Third person, i.e. "Joey and Tom agreed that the dog is green."

A neutral point of view involves trying to assign all statements to a third person authority, i.e. "A says B about C." The Wikipedia tries to employ this point of view. But it does not solve all problems. It requires one to appeal often to credentialism and perhaps professionalism, e.g. "Professor A said, on the record, B about the scientific view of C". Without a vast array of agreements that constitute a systemic bias of its own, there is no real way to adhere to this 'neutral' view, and many simply disregard it. The Meta-Wikipedia often debates the problems arising from this strategy.

Natural point of view, as in the idea of natural law, is often the result of choosing a particular science, e.g. particle physics or ecology, or even economics as expressed in biology ("food chains" etc.) and deciding that all of reality can be evaluated from it. Buddhism and Taoism idealize the approach to such a point of view, but admit it is hard or impossible to achieve, and definitely impossible to reliably communicate to a human being. Accordingly claiming this point of view can be a power grab, e.g. the many claims to have found a Biological Basis of Morality.

Multiple point of view is the compromise, but necessitates what is called (often disdainfully) "politics as usual": the division of participants into factions if only to agree on vocabulary and etiquette and at least some simple view of ethics and morals, if not the formal method for evaluating and quantifying ethicality and morality of human actions long sought in vain by philosophers and theologians.

In addition to these 'spatial' variations, there are also 'temporal' or 'tense' variations in point of view. In English there is a past tense ("saw the dog"), present tense ("see the dog"), future perfect ("will see the dog") and future imperfect ("might see the dog", "could see the dog", "may see the dog"). In French there are separate tenses for backfilling facts incidental to the action (e.g. Bush adminstration claims to care about finding any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq) and for actually advancing the action (e.g. Bush administration desire to discover any new dangerous technology they think may be more advanced than their own). In Japanese there is sensitivity to the status of the speaker and listener. These differences in linguistic tense imply a point of view, suspectibility or immunity to certain propaganda techniques, e.g. one might expect the Japanese to fall more often for credentialism or at least not challenge views presented with credentials, while one might expect the French not to accept, e.g. the "logic of war" when presented as obvious rationalization for an already-made decision.

Alfred Korcybski in his General Semantics theory pointed out that the verb "to be" hides a great many divergences in point of view, and that the terms becomes, remains and equals were far more exact and placed one more exactly in a temporal frame. One was less likely to make easy-to-abuse claims for-all-time, i.e. a dogma.

Literary view

In literature, the point of view, or viewpoint (see perspective for the more general and visual sense of this term), expresses the related experience of the narrator - not that of the author. Authors expressly cannot, in fiction, insert or inject their own voice, as this challenges the suspension of disbelief. Texts encourage the reader to identify with the narrator, not with the author.

Literary narration can occur from the first-person, second-person or third-person point of view. In a novel, first-person commonly appears: I saw ... We did.... In self-help or business writing, the second person (addressing "you") predominates: you must..., thou shalt.... In an encyclopedia or textbook narrators often work in the third-person (that happened..., the king died.... For additional vagueness, imprecision and detachment, some writers employ the passive voice (it is said that the president was compelled to be heard....

The ability to use viewpoint effectively provides one measure of someone's writing ability. The writing markschemes used for National Curriculum assessments in England reflect this: they encourage the awarding of marks for the use of viewpoint as part of a wider judgement regarding the composition and effect of the text.

usage in wikis

When the abbreviation "POV" is used in wiki rhetoric when talking about an article, it usually means that the article has perceived bias. That is, the author has inserted what is overtly their own view, rather than citing authorities or evidence as a neutral point of view would advise. This however is itself a subjective determination, and the serious problems that arise when it is enforced by a small clique have become obvious on Wikipedia and other large public wikis. Among other things, there is no consistent standard of evidence required of popular vs. unpopular views.

The other conceptions of point of view above are also sometimes mentioned, along with culture biases such as the UKPOV or USPOV or EPOV, implying a UK-centric, US-centric, or English-speaking-world-centric view, respectively.

For recommendations on avoiding a personal point of view when editing pages, see how to edit pages. For recommendations on avoiding political or other biaes, see political dispute, terminology dispute, identity dispute.

References